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    01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

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    M Waechter
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by M Waechter on Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:15 pm

    M Carey wrote:On the brakes is where the quick guys make up most of their time, just a better feel I suppose.


    yep I know, they brake at the last possible limit 'always' without getting into a slide of the car Smile.
    In some cases the laps does not look that fast itself in cornerspeed and racing line (Gek drove a wide way in some passages but somehow it is still fast, he keeps up the speed anyway in some way), but their
    gorgeos braking saves quite a lot time.
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    MikaRaymond
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by MikaRaymond on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:11 pm

    Vyacheslav Potapenko wrote:
    I receive complain from Mika that I did bloke him on lapping. Well actually that was during section of slow corners and even when I drive alone it’s hard to keep track on old tires so when you have to give line for other car it makes things harder. I don’t think that keep car behind for couple of corners is blocking, check F1 races – people there keep leaders much longer having much more talent and experience than I have.
    as soon as you see a blue flag, you should move out of the way. watch the replay, you almost caused me to crash twice. you also blocked maarten for a little while. Piers had no problem getting out of the way. i understand its difficult to keep the pace but you should make it a little bit easier for us Wink


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    Silvio Tavares
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by Silvio Tavares on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:50 pm

    if you allow me having a word about blue flags..

    I see blue flags stuff in two fashions: qualify and race condition.. completely diferent situation..

    For qualify I agree to Mika´s view.. just jump out and try not spoil at all dude´s flying lap (if you are in an opening or aborted lap yourself). However, if you are unlucky to meet on track both on flying laps, then you have an issue.. is more similar to fighting for position.. I said similar, not equal.. the diference is that the goal for both is to loose the minimum time, instead of fighting for track position..

    However, in race condition, Slav´s description sounds fair to me. I see as an overtaking maneuver, but without resistence from the back-marker driver. Leaders should also approach carefully and have in mind they are closing a slower car, witch might have earlier braking points and such.

    I don´t like too much the "move out from racing line" thinking for race condition. It can be unpredictable and cause silly crashes by misunderstandings between drivers. It can be done, but must be predictable enough.. most of the times I think is just better keep the racing line and give room for the leader overtake you.. Driving predictably is the main thing, and apply for both, imho.

    And also, sometimes is easy to misjudge what´s the best move to take.. some meetings can be quite confusing.

    my 2 cents..

    cheers to all
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    MikaRaymond
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by MikaRaymond on Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:56 pm

    a blue flag isnt a "please get out of the way in your own time", its a direct order which you have to obey - move over and let the car pass immediately.
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    Silvio Tavares
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by Silvio Tavares on Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:31 am

    MikaRaymond wrote:a blue flag isn't a "please get out of the way in your own time", its a direct order which you have to obey - move over and let the car pass immediately.

    It applies beautifully regarding qualifying. But in race condition I´d say is any of them. Despite I can easily agree it is the ideal, the truth is that the ideal condition is not always true. There are many variables about a meeting between back markers and leaders that can rule the deal... that´s how I see, as a deal. Traffic can cost time and can have different approaches.. For me is not right take it is as "stop immediately what you're doing and get out of the way". It put all on the back marker shoulders and exclude leaders' responsibilities when approaching slower cars.. Very common in virtual racing to find leaders just running into back markers because they seem to be expecting them just to disappear.. but the true is that the dude is also racing and both have a deal to arrange when they meet on track. Both wanna get the best deal and loss the less possible time.. It´s both interest. I´d rather loose some tents then a wing.

    If you take the F1 rule as an example, concerning the "lapping a driver" thing, it says:

    20.4 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the
    faster
    driver past at the first available opportunity
    . If the driver who has
    been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will
    be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to
    overtake
    .
    Any driver who is deemed to be ignoring the waved blue flags will be reported to the stewards of the meeting
    .

    http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8683/fia.html

    See it doesn´t determine how to do it (means not necessarily need to get out of the racing line or "move over", just say let it past), neither when. There is a flexibility to it to prevent accidents. It just says do it as soon as you can and be safe. It is an overtaking maneuver but as a deal, not as a fight for position, if you understand me. At least, mine interpretation, and how I see from real racing.

    Please, I just beg you to notice I don´t have any intention to argue for the sake of arguing, or to create any sort of polemics or such stuff.. Please, don´t take it that way I ask. I also didn´t see your specific issue.. I´m speaking generally because I saw a common disagree on the subject between drivers.

    Therefor I swear my only intention is to contribute with a view on what I consider to be good, fun, clean and safe racing, and only that because the subject is of the interest of all, as blue flags are a situation we are under all the time.

    The F1 rule is just an example, but the point is, if drivers here or elsewhere can have an agree about the subject, it can help avoiding more misunderstanding on track about something that happens very often.

    All the best
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    MikaRaymond
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by MikaRaymond on Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:21 am

    if i knew we would get this deep then i wouldnt have bothered saying anything Very Happy at the end of the day i agree with you, but when a backmarker blocks someone fighting for the lead and almost causes 2 accidents, its a problem. as i said, its not a personal shot at the guy, im just saying it needs to be done more safely. people should be more aware of how fast the front markers approach and 9 times out of 10 they leave it too late.

    lets leave it now.
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    Silvio Tavares
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by Silvio Tavares on Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:41 am

    thanks Mika..

    I didn´t want to cause any issue.. sry if somehow it looked like that.. Rolling Eyes Was just trying to give a helpful comment, based on what I have read in here.. I am not aware of the specific situation like I said.. Just generic tough about the subject, that hopefully might contribute for future situations..

    Sometimes I talk too much indeed... but is always on good faith behaving I assure. Smile

    Cheers mate.
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by MikaRaymond on Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:53 am

    no problem mate Wink
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    Vyacheslav Potapenko
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by Vyacheslav Potapenko on Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:44 am


    as soon as you see a blue flag, you should move out of the way. watch the replay, you almost caused me to crash twice

    normally we start to see blue flags when leader is around 500-700 meters behind. When I need to start give road? Also since you behind me only one person who can make incident is car behind unless car in front doesn’t do: 1) unpredictable line change 2) unpredictable braking. When leader approaches me I have to do double job: 1) look my racing line 2) look into mirrors. I’ll check that replay to see how it looks from your car.
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    Andrea Lojelo
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by Andrea Lojelo on Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:35 am

    I checked the replay Mika provided, and I cannot see anything wrong on what Vyacheslav did. Mika, you've been unlucky to catch him in a series of chicanes, so you lost a lot of time there. People cannot disappear from the track. I agree that back markers should try their best give road, but always in a predictable way. As you can see he even tried to move away after the 2 chicanes, and there you were almost colliding because you didn't expected that.
    It isn't easy for them too. Especially for new drivers, with less experience, isn't easy at all. I'm sure they try their best not to ruin the leaders' race. I've been through that many times. It's something that puts you in a lot of pressure, believe me. you need to check the road trying not do mistakes, check the mirrors, and try to find a spot in which you can give road easily without interfere. And you know you've to do it as fast as possible. Believe me, isn't easy.

    I can understand that you were fighting for the championship and every seconds counts, but back markers are on track with you guys. Just as we saw many times in TV, even F1 drives can gain or loose a lot of time trying to overtake them. You've to be lucky. Sometimes you get them in the straight an you can gain using their slip stream, other times you get them in the worst possible place of the track in which there is no way of overtaking unless forcing it.
    It's always a gamble, but it's part of the game.


    Don't forget that you guys are even 5 seconds faster than the guys on the back of the grid.


    Just because we are all quoting something, I'll do it too. This is the explanation of the blue flag in iRacing:
    Indicates faster cars are approaching. This flag is informational only. In all cases, it is the responsibility of the faster car to safely overtake the slower car. It is the responsibility of the slower car to maintain a consistent line. It is strongly recommended that a slower car being lapped makes every reasonable effort to facilitate a safe pass.


    I've to be honest. I don't like at all that in iRacing, in fact our rules are different, but, from the other side, I agree with the fact that it's a shared responsibility.
    Usually it's easier for the fast car to show on which side he wants to pass. As you saw exactly in this case, when the cars are close and is the slow car to make the move, it can even be dangerous.


    My approach is usually:
    1) if I see the fast car coming, and if it's far enough, I try to go off line to indicate that he can pass safely.
    2) if I haven't seen the fast car in my mirrors soon enough, and I'm in a place in which is hard to overtake, I try hold my line and give road as soon as I can, but waiting the car back to make the move. I always try to be predictable.


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    MikaRaymond
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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

    Post by MikaRaymond on Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:09 pm

    yeah i understand. its just quite frustrating when youre trying to pass a car that doesnt move out of the way though.

    anyway, its all said and done now and it didnt change the result of the race. thanks for the discussion Smile

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    Re: 01 Sept 2011: Spa Francorchamps

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