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    Late braking

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    Vyacheslav Potapenko
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    Late braking

    Post by Vyacheslav Potapenko on Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:51 pm

    I’m sort of learning driving/setup/techniques and want to ask about how to achieve late braking. I was looking into quick guys driving style and here is visualization on difference in braking points that I use versus those monsters. This is Nurburgring track, last slow chicane. As you can see I brake like 50-70 meters earlier. My brake bias setting is 61%. I also add telemetry sreenshoot to show how I use brakes. I’ll appreciate any advices on this topic.

    early


    late


    telemetry

    M Waechter
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by M Waechter on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:01 pm

    One of my 'problems' too.. .
    This late braking is one of the reasons of the 'Aliens' being such quick in a lap.
    When I started with NetKar I just used 60% then 80% brake mult setting to don't block the tires, aliens use 100% brake mult (try it if you don't do so still).., but even when I try to
    use 100% I still need to brake a bit earlier than they do otherwise I'll block the tires with that setting too heavily. Aliens doesn't seem to block the tires even with 100% brake-mult setting,
    don't know how they manage that (maybe they are more sensible with the pedal-movement).
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    Vyacheslav Potapenko
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Vyacheslav Potapenko on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:29 pm

    I think the only reason when you need to set brake mult less that 100% is on rain conditions. I tried 80% on wet Silverstone and was able to manage braking without locking.

    f.gek
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by f.gek on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:45 pm

    For me, the braking is
    57,500% brake bias
    Break Multi 100%
    Coast 100%

    Braking at 50 meters.
    strong pressure, then release the most light and pressure, with small strokes of the accelerator.


    Of course later brakes less time it take to go around

    have been hoping to help


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    Vyacheslav Potapenko
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Vyacheslav Potapenko on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:49 pm

    I’ve seen on F1 on-board cameras with telemetry that f1 drivers on braking touch throttle a little bit. You (f.gek) also mentioned that you use same technic. What is the theory/physics behind that?
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    giancarlo graziano
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by giancarlo graziano on Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:06 am

    gek is a alien...........!!!eheheheh

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    Andrea Candini
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Andrea Candini on Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:39 am

    Vyacheslav Potapenko wrote:I’ve seen on F1 on-board cameras with telemetry that f1 drivers on braking touch throttle a little bit. You (f.gek) also mentioned that you use same technic. What is the theory/physics behind that?

    Using a little of throttle while braking is usually a good help because it makes the car more stable. When you break all the weight is tranferred to the front, this makes the rear really light with the risk of losing grip and blocking tyres. If you use some throttle, weight moves back (it would be better to say "weight doesn't move forward so fast") and you can avoid locking front tyres or lose the back.
    This should be the theory in general, hopefully someone else will be able to add further details. Wink
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    MikaRaymond
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by MikaRaymond on Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:48 am

    i use completely default brake settings. i cant remember what they are but i think its 60% balance and 100% multi. the differential settings change from track-to-track, dependant on how i want the car to behave.

    the idea is to decrease the speed as quickly as you can without locking
    up. set yourself a comfortable braking point and lap after lap, edge
    forward a metre until its physically impossible to get round the corner.
    the slower you get, the more you should lift off the brake (to avoid
    locking) and try to use engine braking as much as you can.

    balance is the key. if you have a setup where the back end swings out under braking, you have a problem. the main thing you can change to help this is ARB, camber, preload and rod. a car which is too stiff will slide out and / or lock up. a car which is too soft is better under braking but less responsive round corners. lets not forget aero plays a part in this too. gek has ALWAYS been better at me under braking due to his soft settings - i generally use harder springs. its personal preference. dont try to beat someone into a braking point if you / your car isnt capable.

    dont worry too much about comparing braking points. as i said, i brake earlier than gek because of my car setup Wink

    Vyacheslav - if the telemetry program isnt a pain to install, ill send you a comparison lap if you like Smile
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    M Carey
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by M Carey on Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:56 am

    Vyacheslav Potapenko wrote:I’ve seen on F1 on-board cameras with telemetry that f1 drivers on braking touch throttle a little bit. You (f.gek) also mentioned that you use same technic. What is the theory/physics behind that?
    I think (not 100% sure) that F1 cars have auto-blip though, so that might complicate matters. I've noticed also that the quicker F1 drivers seem to trail the throttle a smidge for at least some of the braking phase. I'd love to see some telemetry from them (in a little more detail than what FVA showed us).

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    Re: Late braking

    Post by f.gek on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:23 am

    Andrea penso che meglio di cosi non si poteva spiegare.


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    Vyacheslav Potapenko
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Vyacheslav Potapenko on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:01 pm


    Vyacheslav - if the telemetry program isnt a pain to install, ill send you a comparison lap if you like
    Mika, I’d love to see your telemetry! If you don’t mind you can send raw telemetry_dump.nkt and I’ll load it into Race Analysis. This tool is referenced in NetKar FAQ page and it’s pretty easy in use. When I started my simracing career I used FVA and always check my telemetry with ferrari drivers to learn how to drive.
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    Vyacheslav Potapenko
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Vyacheslav Potapenko on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:04 pm


    If you use some throttle, weight moves back (it would be better to say "weight doesn't move forward so fast") and you can avoid locking front tyres or lose the back.
    Honestly I don’t think that slight throttle can generate any weight transfer. More likely that adding accelerator will start turning wheels if they were locked by heavy brakes.

    Piers Structures
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Piers Structures on Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:18 pm

    Vyacheslav Potapenko wrote:

    If you use some throttle, weight moves back (it would be better to say "weight doesn't move forward so fast") and you can avoid locking front tyres or lose the back.
    Honestly I don’t think that slight throttle can generate any weight transfer. More likely that adding accelerator will start turning wheels if they were locked by heavy brakes.

    I'd agree. You should get the same effect by just ... braking a bit less.
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    Vyacheslav Potapenko
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Vyacheslav Potapenko on Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:36 pm


    I'd agree. You should get the same effect by just ... braking a bit less.

    Important difference is – if you brake a bit less you also release front brakes, while braking hard and touching accelerator – you continue to use same pressure on front but at the same time release rear. Yes you can tune brake bias to achieve same effect.
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    MikaRaymond
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by MikaRaymond on Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:42 pm

    the sole reason of "slow bump" & "rebound" is to balance the characteristics and balance of the car while on and off throttle, though 99% of the time they dont need changing. obviously they affect the car in other areas but only very very slightly.

    try going over the last chicane on 50% throttle and 0% throttle - the car will bounce more when on throttle due to the car having forward motion and the rear pitching down slightly, meaning there is less distance for the shock absorbers to move and absorb the impact

    Martin Hussey
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Martin Hussey on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:23 am

    Those of you running your brake bias a long way forward are probably mostly wasting your time blipping the throttle.

    A little throttle avoids the rear wheels losing traction under engine braking. Can also be useful for getting the car to turn into the corner, but thats not braking.

    Personally, i used to run about 60-64% bias, and 80 multi. Now i run 54% bias and 100 multi. Took >10 meters off the braking distance, and theres almost no locking. Tyres run cooler and last longer. Little bit of throttle just to stop the car switching ends on me and its all good.

    Unfortunately brake setup is the only thing i can seem to get right with my setups. All the late braking in the world doesnt make up for the inevitable under/oversteer everywhere else on the track ^^
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    Andrea Candini
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Andrea Candini on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:51 pm

    Vyacheslav Potapenko wrote:
    Honestly I don’t think that slight throttle can generate any weight transfer. More likely that adding accelerator will start turning wheels if they were locked by heavy brakes.
    If you are locking the wheels it's because you used too much brakes or because too much weight has been tranferred to the front of the car, so you need to balance it by reducing pressure on brakes or adding a bit of throttle while braking.
    Throttle is used to help stabilyze the car DURING the braking phase (probably not only because of the weight transfer, but it has also something to do with the engine itself), but if you have already blocked your wheels adding some throttle won't make any magic result. Wink

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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Martin Hussey on Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:49 pm

    Andrea Candini wrote:
    Vyacheslav Potapenko wrote:
    Honestly I don’t think that slight throttle can generate any weight transfer. More likely that adding accelerator will start turning wheels if they were locked by heavy brakes.
    If you are locking the wheels it's because you used too much brakes or because too much weight has been tranferred to the front of the car, so you need to balance it by reducing pressure on brakes or adding a bit of throttle while braking.
    Throttle is used to help stabilyze the car DURING the braking phase (probably not only because of the weight transfer, but it has also something to do with the engine itself), but if you have already blocked your wheels adding some throttle won't make any magic result. Wink

    Yes it does? Obviously only the rear wheels, unless you're insane driving the abarth. But applying throttle while under heavy braking can start the rear wheels turning and regain control of the rear of the car.

    Also, adding throttle is going to do nothing for the front wheels if they have locked. Might as well deploy a rudder and start waving that around for all the good it'll do you Razz

    Oh, and not to sound rude or anything, just a little FYI, its locked. Not blocked Smile
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    Andrea Candini
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by Andrea Candini on Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:54 pm

    Martin Hussey wrote:
    Yes it does? Obviously only the rear wheels
    Correct, we were referring to the same thing, I had to be more specific: applying throttle in these situations will help the rear wheels, but won't do anything if your front wheels are already... locked. Very Happy
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    M Carey
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    Re: Late braking

    Post by M Carey on Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:48 pm

    Martin Hussey wrote:Oh, and not to sound rude or anything, just a little FYI, its locked. Not blocked Smile
    I think I've heard Martin Brundle say blocked before in commentary, I dunno if he was confused, or blocked is a term thats also used (not by accident)? Smile

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    Re: Late braking

    Post by M Waechter on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:31 am

    M Carey wrote:
    Martin Hussey wrote:Oh, and not to sound rude or anything, just a little FYI, its locked. Not blocked Smile
    I think I've heard Martin Brundle say blocked before in commentary, I dunno if he was confused, or blocked is a term thats also used (not by accident)? Smile



    Yeah, I had this in mind too after I wrote my posting (could have used 'locked' better than 'blocked' I thought, lol), but a look at leo.org said that 'to block' also means to lock s.th., so 'to block'
    may also be used/correct.

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